I’ve never sat in a writers’ critique group and don’t plan to start for the reasons you bring to life here. No group could have nudged you to come up with this gem: “I may be “bright” but it is almost entirely limited to a fascination with sparkly objects—jewels, disco balls, bon mots.”
Same. I don't expect to ever join a writer's group again, though I'm certainly open to feedback it it's one on one and the writer has to look me in the eye while they give it. ;) Thank you, Rona, nice to meet you.
I felt sucked out of my cream leather arm rest and slung into my wooden desk during the Chalfont St Peter secondary school creative writing elective. Over the years I have come to find that the most scathing and wantonly cruel criticisms have in fact absolutely nothing to do with you, it's all about themselves and their own self-hatred.
So true! I started a volunteer editing gig recently with a mission statement to "encourage more writing rather than shut it down" and honestly, you can always find something good in anyone's sincere writing efforts, and can always make your point with kindness and specific observations about why something isn't ringing true. Here's to kindness! Thanks Simon!
I second your notion of hereafter naming harsh and unfair critquers ‘Jodie’.
And I’m sorry to hear that those Jodies critiques put you off writing for such a long time. Jodies suck.
I have been going to a writers group every fortnight for about 6 months now and while there aren’t any serious Jodies there (thankfully) - I have found that most of the time the feedback people give says way more about the person giving the feedback than it does about my writing.
And so I try to grab onto any rare bits of actually helpful feedback and let all the other purely subjective personal preferences roll off my back.
Thank YOU, Michael! I have limited access to writer's groups - they did announce one locally, on Facebook group, and then I heard the guy who started it began hitting people up for money because of his divorce and I was glad to have dodged the bullet. Kudos to you for persisting, at least I assume you are providing the kind of helpful feedback others can actually use. Shouldn't it be more of a discussion, too? It would be great to be able to say to someone, Thanks for that, but here's why I did it this way, what do you think about this approach rather than that other, etc etc...
So glad you stopped by. I shall make a point to read some of your older posts as well. Cheers!
Yeah I agree a discussion would definitely be best.
The issue with the group I go to is that we get a limited time to give and receive feedback because of how many people there are in the group. So it’s not ideal, but at the moment it’s better than nothing.
Thanks Troy, I will do the same when I get a chance.
It's sad to say, but I've heard similar stories from other high-profile writing courses.
I'm not sure that a 16/17 year old me would have been able to cope with that. I was shy and with little confidence and I imagine it would have served to just shut me down further, not nurture me, which is what such places and courses should be able to do. As others have said, it speaks to the state/issues of the Jodies themselves and not your writing.
I hope you know though that I am *glued* to every word you write. Your flair and prose are just a delight to read. I always look forward to seeing another post from you in my inbox, even if I can't get to it straight away.
By the way, is Watrspout available somewhere? Is it with an agent? I can't quite recall what I've read you say about it previously. (It's early; my memory is nothing without the delicious black caffeine in my veins...)
OMG I squeaked when I read this comment, Nathan - thank you, from the bottom of my heart - you are a prince! 🥲🫱🏻🫲🏻👑 I am querying Watrspout - I had only a tiny bit of interest from agents, LGBTQ Lit Fic is a small market. I've got some indie publishers in my sights - Nadia suggested one that is very interesting and I think it might be a good fit.
So sorry all that happened. I think if I'd gotten that advice at 16 I would have needed therapy, already being a total mess. Also I think critique groups are hit and miss. Maybe a writing partner would be a better way to work? And not to turn this into an ad, but my biz partner and I offer "manuscript critiques" which provide the high-level feedback it seems like you're looking for. And my partner loves fantasy. In any case, keep writing! It's part of who you are.
Therapy has helped 🤣 I've also not had great luck with writing partners, I omitted a couple of disastrous 1:1 experiences lately. I appreciate the offer of your service, Andrea, and will absolutely keep it in mind - neither of my novels, my finished or my WIP are Fantasy, actually - somehow switching to Lit Fic/Contemporary made the connection possible. I did find a good Reader on Fiverr that was mentioned in an article by a writer who gave her a glowing review - I found her feedback helpful. Onward! 💜
Liesl needed someone older and wiser, telling her what to do(ooo), and the bastards stomped her.
I’m sorry this happened, Troy. I’m inclined to agree with Leo. That type of thoughtless superiority, when inflicted on a child for crying out loud, speaks to some kind of deep, underlying pathology. It crushes me to think of how common this probably is, and of all the gifts and beauty that are denied shape and form in the world thanks to it… So grateful that you prevailed and that you share your voice today.
The crazy thing is I played Rolf in our 7th grade production ::)) It is a real shame what happened, but my more recent experience - while irritating and ridiculous - made me realize both that I'm now absolutely able to identify bullshit when I see it, and that it was time to tell the story from so long ago. I'm volunteering with a new editing program that provides feedback to writers and our first principle: Feedback should encourage more writing, not shut it down. Thanks, Chloe!!!
People can be really mean and I can imagine how damaging feedback like what you described is. I honestly feel it stems from a place of insecurity of their own writing and perhaps even jealousy at your talent. It is a form of bullying and abuse and is not really feedback at all. I am sorry this happened to you.
Opening a vein, even partly, leaves us raw. Such dismissive commentary, being unconstructive as it is, is more a reflection of the insensitivity and self-centeredness of its author than useful commentary.
Your post reminded me of a bad class/workshop experience years ago. I've always written some kind of "genre": a little SF/F, light horror, a touch of crime... I came to the first class full of enthusiasm, excited to share my stuff, eager to hear how I could do better. It might have been something in the fantastic realm, but honestly I've forgotten. Anyway, I was met with sneers and smirks: "We don't do "genre" here, only literary." I went to a couple of meetings, then said, f*** it, this isn't my vibe. Snooty Jodies, I guess!
That sucks! Sorry, Martine... Sneers and smirks, what the hell? I just don't get the pathological enjoyment people get by finding a flaw (or even just a difference) in someone, and then feeling entitled to rip it open in such a cruel manner. Well, here we are, years later, still writing... :)
Oh yes, still writing, and definitely embracing "genre". I never thought there was anything wrong with it. It's what I enjoy reading, lol! Luckily, not everybody shares the narrow definition of literature of the teacher of that class. And I guess, I was in the wrong class too!
I’ve never sat in a writers’ critique group and don’t plan to start for the reasons you bring to life here. No group could have nudged you to come up with this gem: “I may be “bright” but it is almost entirely limited to a fascination with sparkly objects—jewels, disco balls, bon mots.”
Same. I don't expect to ever join a writer's group again, though I'm certainly open to feedback it it's one on one and the writer has to look me in the eye while they give it. ;) Thank you, Rona, nice to meet you.
I felt sucked out of my cream leather arm rest and slung into my wooden desk during the Chalfont St Peter secondary school creative writing elective. Over the years I have come to find that the most scathing and wantonly cruel criticisms have in fact absolutely nothing to do with you, it's all about themselves and their own self-hatred.
So true! I started a volunteer editing gig recently with a mission statement to "encourage more writing rather than shut it down" and honestly, you can always find something good in anyone's sincere writing efforts, and can always make your point with kindness and specific observations about why something isn't ringing true. Here's to kindness! Thanks Simon!
So glad you soldiered on and now share your writing with us all!
Thank you so much, Mya, and glad to have connected with you!
This was a great read Troy.
I second your notion of hereafter naming harsh and unfair critquers ‘Jodie’.
And I’m sorry to hear that those Jodies critiques put you off writing for such a long time. Jodies suck.
I have been going to a writers group every fortnight for about 6 months now and while there aren’t any serious Jodies there (thankfully) - I have found that most of the time the feedback people give says way more about the person giving the feedback than it does about my writing.
And so I try to grab onto any rare bits of actually helpful feedback and let all the other purely subjective personal preferences roll off my back.
Great read thanks.
Thank YOU, Michael! I have limited access to writer's groups - they did announce one locally, on Facebook group, and then I heard the guy who started it began hitting people up for money because of his divorce and I was glad to have dodged the bullet. Kudos to you for persisting, at least I assume you are providing the kind of helpful feedback others can actually use. Shouldn't it be more of a discussion, too? It would be great to be able to say to someone, Thanks for that, but here's why I did it this way, what do you think about this approach rather than that other, etc etc...
So glad you stopped by. I shall make a point to read some of your older posts as well. Cheers!
That does sound like you dodged a bullet!
Yeah I agree a discussion would definitely be best.
The issue with the group I go to is that we get a limited time to give and receive feedback because of how many people there are in the group. So it’s not ideal, but at the moment it’s better than nothing.
Thanks Troy, I will do the same when I get a chance.
Cheers.
“Ever since Harriet the Spy I had wanted to be a writer ... “ ❤️
💜💜💜
Oh Troy, I'm sorry. This sounds awful.
It's sad to say, but I've heard similar stories from other high-profile writing courses.
I'm not sure that a 16/17 year old me would have been able to cope with that. I was shy and with little confidence and I imagine it would have served to just shut me down further, not nurture me, which is what such places and courses should be able to do. As others have said, it speaks to the state/issues of the Jodies themselves and not your writing.
I hope you know though that I am *glued* to every word you write. Your flair and prose are just a delight to read. I always look forward to seeing another post from you in my inbox, even if I can't get to it straight away.
By the way, is Watrspout available somewhere? Is it with an agent? I can't quite recall what I've read you say about it previously. (It's early; my memory is nothing without the delicious black caffeine in my veins...)
OMG I squeaked when I read this comment, Nathan - thank you, from the bottom of my heart - you are a prince! 🥲🫱🏻🫲🏻👑 I am querying Watrspout - I had only a tiny bit of interest from agents, LGBTQ Lit Fic is a small market. I've got some indie publishers in my sights - Nadia suggested one that is very interesting and I think it might be a good fit.
Have a wonderful day, brother Nathan!
So sorry all that happened. I think if I'd gotten that advice at 16 I would have needed therapy, already being a total mess. Also I think critique groups are hit and miss. Maybe a writing partner would be a better way to work? And not to turn this into an ad, but my biz partner and I offer "manuscript critiques" which provide the high-level feedback it seems like you're looking for. And my partner loves fantasy. In any case, keep writing! It's part of who you are.
Therapy has helped 🤣 I've also not had great luck with writing partners, I omitted a couple of disastrous 1:1 experiences lately. I appreciate the offer of your service, Andrea, and will absolutely keep it in mind - neither of my novels, my finished or my WIP are Fantasy, actually - somehow switching to Lit Fic/Contemporary made the connection possible. I did find a good Reader on Fiverr that was mentioned in an article by a writer who gave her a glowing review - I found her feedback helpful. Onward! 💜
Yes! Onward!! 😊
Liesl needed someone older and wiser, telling her what to do(ooo), and the bastards stomped her.
I’m sorry this happened, Troy. I’m inclined to agree with Leo. That type of thoughtless superiority, when inflicted on a child for crying out loud, speaks to some kind of deep, underlying pathology. It crushes me to think of how common this probably is, and of all the gifts and beauty that are denied shape and form in the world thanks to it… So grateful that you prevailed and that you share your voice today.
The crazy thing is I played Rolf in our 7th grade production ::)) It is a real shame what happened, but my more recent experience - while irritating and ridiculous - made me realize both that I'm now absolutely able to identify bullshit when I see it, and that it was time to tell the story from so long ago. I'm volunteering with a new editing program that provides feedback to writers and our first principle: Feedback should encourage more writing, not shut it down. Thanks, Chloe!!!
That’s such a beautiful, and important, first principle. And I imagine that you were a spectacular Rolf :)
I was a spectacular Rolf! 😇It helped that my Liesl was a 5th grader who actually was in love with me... 🤣
5th grade method acting, I’m devastated I missed the production! 💕
hahaha! it was a short-lived affair, i only had eyes for the captain
Amen to that. If they ever let us DM on here remind me to tell you my Von Trapp story…
People can be really mean and I can imagine how damaging feedback like what you described is. I honestly feel it stems from a place of insecurity of their own writing and perhaps even jealousy at your talent. It is a form of bullying and abuse and is not really feedback at all. I am sorry this happened to you.
You're a brilliant author. Keep on shining!
Thanks ducks, your support means EVERYTHING
Opening a vein, even partly, leaves us raw. Such dismissive commentary, being unconstructive as it is, is more a reflection of the insensitivity and self-centeredness of its author than useful commentary.
Raw can be good, if it doesn't turn into a wound... thx Richard
Your post reminded me of a bad class/workshop experience years ago. I've always written some kind of "genre": a little SF/F, light horror, a touch of crime... I came to the first class full of enthusiasm, excited to share my stuff, eager to hear how I could do better. It might have been something in the fantastic realm, but honestly I've forgotten. Anyway, I was met with sneers and smirks: "We don't do "genre" here, only literary." I went to a couple of meetings, then said, f*** it, this isn't my vibe. Snooty Jodies, I guess!
That sucks! Sorry, Martine... Sneers and smirks, what the hell? I just don't get the pathological enjoyment people get by finding a flaw (or even just a difference) in someone, and then feeling entitled to rip it open in such a cruel manner. Well, here we are, years later, still writing... :)
Oh yes, still writing, and definitely embracing "genre". I never thought there was anything wrong with it. It's what I enjoy reading, lol! Luckily, not everybody shares the narrow definition of literature of the teacher of that class. And I guess, I was in the wrong class too!
Woodoo???! What next?
Centrifugal Bumble-Puppy!